All Things Go Podcast

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. Tang’s statements are presented in Travis’s English-language narration based on his Chinese-language interview. Eric’s segment is his own recorded voice. The family interruption near the end is an intentional outtake.

Introduction

[00:00] Travis: This episode is sponsored by BadukPop and SmartGo One. Earlier this year, a Chinese professional Go player played someone online who claimed to be a Fox nine-dan.

[00:12] Travis: For those who don't know, Fox is an Asian Go server. But this professional had already been around that level himself when he was about 10 years old, and when they played, something felt wrong.

[00:24] Travis: The strange part was that the moves did not necessarily look unusual, he said. They looked pretty normal. What felt different was the pressure. He described it as almost spilling off the screen, and he said the sense of powerlessness he felt was suffocating.

[00:41] Travis: That professional player's name is Tang Tianyuan. Tang is a Chinese professional, 1-dan who has also become a Go creator and commentator on Bilibili, a major Chinese video and live streaming platform that for a Western audience is roughly comparable to a mix of YouTube and Twitch.

[01:01] Travis: He has around 25,000 followers there, and some of his videos reach a much larger audience. One recent professional game commentary was watched nearly 700,000 times.

[01:13] Travis: Earlier this year, Tang publicly questioned whether another Bilibili Go creator known as Little Helper George was using AI assistance during his games.

[01:24] Travis: Tang played him himself. Then he reviewed George's earlier games and Tang became convinced that AI was being used. Part of what I wanted to understand was how a professional could recognize that because to me, an amateur player, an AI assisted game might simply look like someone playing extremely well.

[01:46] Travis: Tang described something different. He talked about the overall feeling of the game and the kind of pressure he was experiencing. But the conversation also covered Tang's own path through go.

[01:59] Travis: He had been a very strong player as a child, then spent several years mostly away from serious training. At 16, he returned to the game and decided to try becoming a professional.

[02:12] Travis: His mother supported the decision, but his father opposed it. Tang and his mother quietly left for Beijing, where he began training full time. He spent years trying to qualify as a professional before finally doing it in 2020.

[02:28] Travis: By then he was also starting to think differently about what kind of career he could have and Go. That eventually led to teaching, content creation and commentary. So this episode covers Tang's path to becoming a professional life inside a Chinese Go dojo the difference between professional and amateur understanding his experience playing someone he believed was using AI and where he sees his own role in Go going forward.

[02:56] Travis: One quick note about the format Tang speaks Chinese and I do not. We conducted the interview using live translation. The conversation itself worked pretty well, but unfortunately Tang's original audio did not come through cleanly enough for me to use most of it directly.

[03:13] Travis: Fortunately, I did have the original Chinese transcript. So I went back through his answers carefully and reconstructed them in English, trying to stay as close as possible to what Tang actually said.

[03:25] Travis: I'll walk through the conversation and use Tang's translated words directly where it makes sense. So with that, let's get started. This is All Things Go.

Tang’s Early Go Years and the Decision to Train

[03:52] Travis: Tang started learning Go when he was 7. By 9, he had reached amateur 5-dan. Then for about five years, playing Go seriously mostly took a backseat while he focused on school.

[04:06] Travis: When he was around 16, that changed. Tang said there were a few turning points. One was an amateur tournament in his hometown. He played against a stronger player and lost badly.

[04:18] Travis: That made him want to compete at a higher level. Another came when the Yicheng Go server released a mobile version. Tang downloaded it and started secretly watching the Bailing Cup final between Ke Jie and Qiu Jun while he was in class.

[04:34] Travis: He said, I found that watching the match was far more interesting to me than anything happening in class. His grades were fairly average at the time, and he started thinking about what would happen if he simply stayed on the normal academic path.

[04:48] Travis: He told me, I thought if I just continued along the normal academic path, I might live a very ordinary life. So I thought, why not do something I actually love?

[05:00] Travis: At 16, Tang was still thinking very big. He looked at Ke Jie and thought, if he can do it, maybe I can too. He wanted to become a world champion.

[05:13] Travis: Tang was approaching the age when Chinese students begin preparing seriously for the gaokao, the national college entrance exam. Instead, he wanted to move to Beijing and train full time at the Gu Yuhong Go dojo.

[05:28] Travis: This dojo is one of China's major training centers for young players trying to become professionals. Tang said the decision itself was not particularly difficult for him.

[05:39] Travis: Once he decides he wants to do something, he tends to act on it. The family situation was harder. His mother supported him. His father strongly opposed the decision.

[05:52] Travis: Tang said he never really got his father's permission. The day he left, he'd still been at school, taking an exam. Then, late that night or early the next morning, Tang can't remember exactly.

[06:05] Travis: He and his mother quietly got on a plane for Beijing. Tang says he still doesn't know exactly how to interpret what happened. Maybe his father tacitly allowed them to go, or maybe Tang and his mother really did leave without his permission.

[06:20] Travis: He's not sure. I asked him how confident he was that he could actually become a professional. Objectively, he said he didn't know what his chances were.

[06:31] Travis: He said, personally, I believed it was going to happen, and I've always believed that if I truly put my heart into something, I can do it well.

Inside a Chinese Go Dojo

[06:40] Travis: Tang described a normal day in the dojo. They would get up sometime after seven in the morning. Tang usually skipped breakfast because he didn't get up early enough to have time for it.

[06:51] Travis: Then they would exercise. By sometime after 8, they were in the training room. They would spend about an hour working on Go problems. Then they would play a training game until around 11:30, then lunch, then a short break.

[07:07] Travis: Tang said other people might nap. He usually found somebody at that time and would play fast games instead. At around 2 o’clock, they would play another full training game. There would be more study during the afternoon.

[07:20] Travis: In the evening, the teachers would review their games. Then there was independent study. The day usually ended around 10 o’clock at night. Tang said one of the main advantages of the dojo was not simply the number of hours they were studying.

[07:35] Travis: It was having professional teachers who could explain the game at a deeper level. They were also surrounded by other strong players. The ages varied quite a bit. Some students might be six or seven years old.

[07:48] Travis: Others could be in their 20s or even 30s. But everyone was there to get stronger.

The Road to Professional 1-dan

[07:56] Travis: Tang first entered the Chinese Professional Qualification Tournament when he was a child. But he said those early attempts when he was nine or 10 were different because he didn't really understand what they meant.

[08:08] Travis: The serious attempts came after he returned to Go. From around age 16 to 20, he entered the qualification tournament about five times. He kept falling short, but he also kept improving.

[08:22] Travis: Tang said some players eventually reach a point where their strength stops increasing. They keep trying to qualify, but their level has plateaued. But he didn't feel that was happening to him.

[08:34] Travis: Every year, he could see significant progress. So he continued trying. He told me, I had already devoted myself to Go. If I gave it up, I felt as though I would have nothing left.

[08:46] Travis: And then he said, I didn't even have the right to give up. Eventually, in 2020, Tang qualified as a professional. He was 21 years old, he said, when it happened. His life seemed to flash through his mind.

[09:03] Travis: He thought about games he had not won, his first amateur championship, people who had come and gone during those years. And he thought about his father. Even though his father had opposed his decision, he had still helped Tang's mother pay the tuition.

[09:20] Travis: Tang remembered thinking, finally I have an answer I can give them. Finally I have something to show for all of this. By the time Tang qualified, his expectations had changed.

[09:34] Travis: At 16, he had imagined becoming a world champion. By twenty-one, he was looking at players his own age who had already won major international titles. Tang had only just become a professional. 1-dan, he told me at the same age, some other players had already won several world championships, while I had only just become a professional.

Sponsors: BadukPop and SmartGo One

[09:56] Travis: This episode is sponsored by BadukPop, the app that makes learning Go fun and accessible with interactive puzzles, bite sized lessons and an AI tutor to guide you step by step. It's perfect for players on the move. You can download it or learn more at badukpop.com that's B A D U K P O P.com this episode is also sponsored by SmartGo One.

[10:20] Travis: The latest update adds direct OGS support plus a great new feature that can turn a photo of a Go board or book diagram into an SGF file. You can Also now read two Go books, Relentless and Shape Up!, free inside SmartGo One.

[10:36] Travis: Find SmartGo One in the App Store or at smartgo.com Tang accepted that he probably was not going to make an enormous breakthrough in his own playing strength,

Teaching and Thinking Like a Professional

[10:46] Travis: so he started thinking about other directions. Teaching was one of them. Tang went on to teach professionally for more than four years. He said there are a number of paths available to professional players.

[10:59] Travis: They can teach, they can work with a local Go association, they can move into administrative roles. They can take their experience and go into other fields. And players who are good at communicating can move into content creation.

[11:13] Travis: That eventually became Tang's path. Tang has taught a lot of strong amateur players. He says he has helped more than 50 students reach amateur 5-dan, with many others reaching 3-dan or even 4-dan.

[11:27] Travis: I asked him what a professional sees in a game that a strong amateur might not. He said he thinks of the Go board almost like a map. Fundamentally, the game is about claiming territory, so you want to play in areas with fewer stones and more open space.

[11:43] Travis: The principle he gave was play toward the wider, more open parts of the board. Tang said the principle sounds simple. The difficulty is applying it consistently.

[11:55] Travis: He used thickness as an example. Amateur players may build thickness and then become concerned about whether it's going to turn directly into territory, Tang said not to force that. If your opponent is spending a lot of moves around your thickness, then the thickness may already be doing useful work.

[12:14] Travis: Meanwhile, you can play somewhere else where there's more open space. Tang said that against a lower-dan amateur, he can sometimes explain the direction of play while the game is happening, never capture a single stone and still win comfortably.

[12:30] Travis: He summarized the difference this Professional players focus more on the underlying logic.

Tang’s Account of Suspected AI Assistance

[12:38] Travis: Little Helper George presented himself as a Fox 9-dan player. Tang said he had already been around that level himself when he was about 10 years old. Tang said he had already been around that level himself when he was about ten years old.

[12:52] Travis: When they played, though, Tang felt something was wrong. He said the strange thing was that the moves looked completely normal, but in reality they were extremely abnormal.

[13:04] Travis: Tang said he himself can play very ordinary looking moves against strong amateur players and still beat them by dozens of points. So the appearance of the moves was not the issue.

[13:15] Travis: What Tang noticed was was the pressure. He said, from my perspective, the pressure those moves created was almost coming through the screen. That sense of powerlessness was suffocating.

[13:29] Travis: Tang also compared Little Helper George's claimed strength with his own development. George claimed to be Fox nine-dan. Tang had been around that level at age 10.

[13:40] Travis: Playing this opponent felt to him almost like going through all of those additional years of training, only to be easily beaten by the elementary school version of himself.

[13:51] Travis: Tang said he understood internally that something was wrong. The harder part was explaining that feeling to ordinary Go players. So he reviewed Little Helper George’s previous games.

[14:03] Travis: After looking at those games, Tang became convinced that AI had been used. I asked Tang whether there was one particular move that made him suspect AI was being used.

[14:15] Travis: He mentioned two kosumi, or small diagonal moves in the upper right corner. He said those moves immediately created an enormous amount of pressure. He said he almost couldn't breathe as the game continued, he felt like Little Helper George simply rolled over him.

[14:31] Travis: Tang described it as a really terrifying feeling of suffocation. But he was also clear that a single move could not prove the use of AI. He said a single move really can't prove anything, no matter what.

[14:46] Travis: For Tang, the more important evidence was the overall feeling of the game, the way it progressed, the pressure he was under, and the level of play across the game as a whole.

[14:58] Travis: Tang eventually went public with his concerns. He showed the games and explained why he believed AI had been used. I asked him why he decided to speak out publicly about it.

[15:10] Travis: He said, for me, it was something I felt I had to do. From Tang's perspective, the issue went beyond cheating in an online game. He believed that Little Helper George was using AI, presenting that strength as his own, and then charging high tuition fees for giving Go lessons.

[15:30] Travis: Tang said allowing it to exist is unfair to all the other dedicated, responsible teachers. He also said he tends to overthink criticism before speaking publicly. He knew people might call him a sore loser.

[15:46] Travis: Others might assume he was acting out of self interest or for attention. Tang said he expected those reactions, but seeing them still made him uncomfortable. Nevertheless, he felt he needed to follow the issue through.

[16:01] Travis: I also asked whether he thought other professional players had a responsibility for to speak out when they suspected cheating. Tang didn't want to impose that responsibility on anyone else. He said, I'm not in a position to place any responsibility on anyone and I can only speak for myself.

[16:19] Travis: His own standard was I need to have a clear conscience.

AI in Training, Commentary, and Go Around the World

[16:24] Travis: I also asked Tang about the other side of AI. If the 16 year old Tang entering the dojo in 2015 had access to today's AI tools, would he have become stronger, faster, or would he have lost something by relying too heavily on AI?

[16:41] Travis: Tang said AI has changed a great deal in go, but if everyone has access to it, the relative differences between players do not necessarily change very much. Everyone may become stronger in absolute terms, but the strongest players generally remain the strongest players.

[16:58] Travis: Tang said young players training to become professionals in China today all use AI. They review games with it, but much of the rest of the dojo training remains fairly similar.

[17:10] Travis: His broader point was that the world changes and players need to adapt to the tools available in each era. Tang later moved into content creation and live streaming on Bilibili.

[17:21] Travis: Like I mentioned before, he has around 25,000 followers and some of his professional game commentary reaches hundreds of thousands of viewers. He said he started because he was interested in trying it. He still considers himself relatively new to live streaming and he also thinks there are areas where Go promotion and Go content could improve.

[17:41] Travis: But he doesn't like simply pointing out problems. He said just pointing out problems without offering solutions is bullshit, and practice is the only criterion for testing truth.

[17:54] Travis: Tang described himself this way, I've always been a person of action. That description applies to several parts of Tang's story. He decided to pursue Go and move to Beijing.

[18:07] Travis: He continued trying to become a professional even after many failed attempts. He believed there was a problem with Little Helper George's use of AI and spoke out publicly about it.

[18:18] Travis: And now he sees problems in Go content and commentary and is trying his own approach. Tang said one of the things he enjoys most about making content is recognition from the audience.

[18:30] Travis: When people respond positively to what he's doing, he feels like there are more people walking the same road with him. Toward the end of the conversation, I asked Tang what he would like his role in Go to look like in the future.

[18:44] Travis: He said being a professional player is almost like a calling card for him. He hopes he can be worthy of the title if he had to choose one specific direction, though he said he'd like to become more of a commentator.

[18:57] Travis: Tang said there are many professionals stronger than he is, but he thinks communication and presenting Go content may be areas where he can do particularly well. He told me, through my commentary, I hope I can help people understand what professional players are actually thinking during their games and I hope more people can come to like go.

[19:19] Travis: I also asked Tang about Go outside China, Japan and Korea. He said, I really truly hope that Go can develop around the world. Tang said even participating in this interview was connected to that goal.

[19:33] Travis: He wants more communication with players outside China. He would also like to see matches such as Chinese players competing against American or British players. Tang identified a couple of obstacles to Go growing internationally.

[19:47] Travis: One is overall playing strength. He thinks the level outside of the major East Asia Go countries is still relatively low and that having more strong players consistently teaching and promoting the game could help.

[20:00] Travis: The second issue is that Go is difficult to watch. Tang compared it with soccer and baseball, where a viewer can understand much of what's happening without having a high level of expertise.

[20:11] Travis: Go, of course, is harder. That is one reason he thinks commentary is really important. If a commentator can make a high level game understandable and enjoyable for ordinary players, Tang believes that can help the game grow.

[20:26] Travis: His final message to Western listeners was I am someone who really wants to help bring Go to the wider world, and he said he would be willing to do more toward that goal.

[20:39] Travis: So to wrap things up, Tang's relationship with Go has changed considerably over time. From being a strong player as a child to stepping away from the game and returning from many attempts to trying to become a professional and finally breaking through to then deciding that he needed to pivot and focus on other aspects of playing the game beyond just being the best player in the world.

[21:01] Travis: Along the way, there's been some fireworks with things like the AI cheating story and his newfound interest in commentating and doing content creation.

Eric of Jobless Baduk and BadukTeacher.com

[21:28] Travis: Before wrapping up, I wanted to introduce the person who helped make this episode possible. Eric, who goes by Jobless Baduk online, is a strong amateur Go player based in Hong Kong and the creator of BadukTeacher.com. He helped connect me with Tang, so I thought we’d hear a little bit about his own Go journey, how BadukTeacher got started, and how he came to know Tang.

[21:52] Travis: Let's jump to that now.

[21:57] Eric: I started learning Go when I was around 12, in my final year of primary school. Like a lot of people, I became interested in it through the anime Hikaru no Go.

[22:10] Eric: There were not many Go teachers in Hong Kong at that time, so I was lucky to find an amateur 3-dan who could teach me.

[22:21] Eric: I studied with him for a few years and won some children's tournaments, but I stopped taking lessons and playing Go when I was around 16.

[22:34] Eric: Then in 2024 I picked it up again, this time really serious about improving and playing it well.

[22:46] Eric: So I started looking online for strong amateur players and professional teachers to learn from and I'm now a Hong Kong amateur 5-dan, roughly 7 to 8-dan on Fox. About a year and a half ago I left my job for personal reasons and in August 2025,

[23:11] Eric: two months after I left my job, I started my YouTube channel Jobless Baduk. And in May this year, I started building BadukTeacher.com. These days, apart from spending time with my family, most of my time goes into Go-related projects or improving my own game.

[23:32] Eric: So Go has become a very big part of my life, much more than just a hobby. The idea behind BadukTeacher.com is to make strong Go teachers in Asia more accessible to players around the world.

[23:50] Eric: That comes directly from my own experience. When I was younger, my teacher was an amateur 3-dan and by the time I stopped studying with him I was around amateur 2- or 3-dan myself.

[24:05] Eric: Since returning to Go, I've had the chance to study with professional level players. It's really opened my eyes to how much more there is to understand.

[24:17] Eric: The depth of their explanations and the things they notice in my games can be very different from what I was used to. That doesn't mean only professionals can be good teachers, but it made me appreciate how much access to that level of knowledge can help a student grow.

[24:36] Eric: And that's why I built BadukTeacher.com. There are many excellent teachers in the west, of course, but I think access to professional level teaching can still be quite limited, especially when language gets in the way.

[24:56] Eric: One of our platform's key features is real-time translation. It means a teacher who doesn’t speak English can still teach students from other parts of the world. That’s the gap I want to bridge. I hope more people can benefit from high-level Go education wherever they live and whatever language they speak.

[25:20] Eric: I first came across Tang Tianyuan, AKA Teacher Tang, through a short video on Bilibili, the Chinese video platform. In that video he raised concerns about suspected AI cheating in a game he played against another Go teacher online.

[25:39] Eric: It became quite a controversy because the other teacher already had a large following. What caught my attention was Tang's willingness to speak up about something he believed was wrong.

[25:55] Eric: An accusation like that is serious, and if he was mistaken his own reputation could suffer too. I admired the courage it took to put himself in that position.

[26:09] Eric: That was what first made me notice him. But as I watched more of his content and got to know him more, I found there was a lot more to him.

[26:20] Eric: He is a professional 1-dan in China, and I would say that his professional results are kind of mediocre, but I think he wouldn't mind about that because what really makes him stand out to me is his personality.

[26:38] Eric: In my opinion, he's one of the most charismatic Go streamers in China or maybe in the whole world, I don't know because we can't compare. He's very funny, he's very engaging, and he's always trying to interact with viewers on Bilibili, play games with viewers and also hosting tournaments with other Go content creators. So he's trying to bring the whole online Go community together and I think he's making good progress on that area.

[27:15] Eric: He makes fun of himself a lot on stream, but behind that humorous side, he is a very serious teacher who holds himself to high standards and recently he's wanted to connect with more Go players around the world.

[27:33] Eric: So that's why you may have seen him on YouTube or on Reddit and also on PlayGo.gg and I really hope more people outside China get a chance to know him and learn from him.

[27:50] Eric: Whenever I'm considering a new teacher for the platform, I take a lesson with them myself. And of course I pay for the lesson. Just like other students, we play a teaching game on the platform. I will lose most of the time, or all the time, and then we review it together.

[28:11] Eric: It's quite interesting to notice each teacher has their own teaching style and they emphasize on different things.

[28:22] Eric: What surprised me most was how open the teachers were to trying something new. I expected more hesitation about joining a new platform like this.

[28:35] Eric: Instead, most of the teachers I approached were quite happy to give it a try. Their willingness to trust me and the project really means a lot to me.

[28:47] Eric: Another moment that stayed with me was an email from a French speaking student. They said the platform had helped them communicate and learn from a teacher who spoke a different language.

[29:02] Eric: That made the whole idea feel real and something that would be otherwise very difficult was actually happening. Two people could connect through Go even without a shared language.

[29:17] Eric: And this is the whole point of BadukTeacher.com. It was a very wonderful feeling, and I would say surreal, for me.

[29:28] Eric: feedback like that gives me the motivation to keep on going, reaching more students who could benefit from the platform.

Closing and Credits

[29:41] Travis: I want to thank Eric again for taking the time to record these answers and for helping me connect with Tang in the first place. You can check out his work at BadukTeacher.com and I'll include a link in the episode notes.

[29:54] Travis: With that, we'll wrap up the episode. Thanks again for listening and if you enjoyed the content, please share it with others. This is All Things Go.

After-the-Music Outtake

[30:18] Off-mic family outtake: Dad hey sweetie, I'm recording right now. I can't speak. Can I have a phone please? I can't speak right now.

Closing Sponsor Messages

[30:27] Travis: Before you go, I wanted to thank SmartGo One for sponsoring All Things Go. SmartGo keeps adding some really useful tools, including OGS integration and a new way to create an SGF file just by taking a photo of a Go board or a diagram from a book.

[30:43] Travis: The app also now includes two Go books, Relentless and Shape Up!, available to read for free. You can find SmartGo One in the App Store or at smartgo.com our other sponsor is BadukPop, which is an app that makes Go simple and fun to learn with interactive puzzles, short lessons, and an AI tutor that helps you improve wherever you are.

[31:05] Travis: It also gives you daily ranked problems that adjust to your level, themed sets like Life and death and tesuji, AI and online play so you can practice and then test what you've learned. You can check it outat badukpop.com that's b a d u k p o p dot com.