All Things Go Podcast

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. Timestamps correspond to the published episode.

Opening and Sponsors

[00:00] Travis: This episode is sponsored by Baduk Pop and SmartGo One.

Giving Back at the U.S. Go Congress

[00:27] Travis: We're going to kick off this episode with a conversation with Gabe from Struggle Bus Go.

[00:33] Travis: You may know his YouTube channel.

[00:35] Travis: I connected with Gabe because he undertook a really unique project for his first attendance of the U.S. Go Congress, and then also just gave a little bit of his experience with going to any Go Congress for the first time.

[00:49] Travis: So let's go have a listen now.

[00:54] Travis: Maybe you can first just set the stage.

[00:57] Travis: You went to your first U.S. Go Congress here in the States, and I do want to hear about how that went. But first, maybe you can tell us about something unique you did for this Congress.

[01:08] Travis: Can you tell us more?

[01:10] Gabe: Yeah.

[01:10] Travis: So.

[01:11] Gabe: So this was my first Congress, and when it was announced, you know, a little over a year ago that it was going to be in Boston, I'm not too far away from Boston.

[01:18] Gabe: You know, I went to my wife, and I was like, hey, you know, this would be really important to me, something I want to go do.

[01:23] Gabe: And in the back of my mind, I was like, you know, maybe I could turn this into,

[01:26] Gabe: like, a family trip. And so I kind of earmarked some money from that, primarily the money that I get for Patreon. And it's interesting because, like, I have that Patreon set up, but I always feel bad, like, legitimately feel bad collecting money.

[01:39] Gabe: And so I do my best to try to keep that within the Go community.

[01:43] Gabe: But honestly, I hadn't touched it for a while, so it was there. And so I kind of earmarked it for, like, this potential family vacation.

[01:49] Gabe: But of course, my wife and kids had had absolutely no interest, and so it was just me.

[01:54] Gabe: And so. So then, you know, then I go to register and, you know, take a look at the hotel and whatnot and. And realize just, like, truly how expensive it is to.

[02:03] Gabe: To go to this. Right? You know, the Congress was $500 to sign up for.

[02:08] Gabe: If you're splitting the hotel with somebody, that's. It was like a little over 800 for the week. You're taking a week off of work, Some people are traveling out. It just.

[02:15] Gabe: It adds up to a lot.

[02:18] Gabe: And so I talked to a lot of people in the community, and I know there were a bunch of people who. Who I knew who wanted to go but couldn't go because they couldn't afford it.

[02:25] Gabe: And so I was like, you know, I know what I'm like. I had this money earmarked. It came from the Go community.

[02:30] Gabe: Let's just throw it back in. And so what I did is I ended up renting out this huge house two miles from the hotel that could sleep up to 12.

[02:39] Gabe: And then I made a video I posted online. I was basically like, hey, you know, laid out what I, what I just explained. I'm like, I understand that this is prohibitively expensive for many of you, and so if this is you, if this, you know, if you really want to come but you just can't make the money work,

[02:53] Gabe: reach out. We'll see what we can do.

[02:56] Gabe: And it was a big risk. I had no idea if there was going to be like any interest at all, but obviously people started trickling in. But, you know, at the end of the day, I ended up getting 12 people in that house, you know, myself included.

[03:09] Gabe: And so, so yeah, it was a pretty, it was a pretty wild thing. And again, I knew that there was, there was a lot of inherent risk there, right.

[03:18] Gabe: Basically getting 12 essentially strangers together.

[03:21] Travis: Right.

[03:21] Gabe: And you know, I love, I love the Go community. I am the Go community.

[03:25] Gabe: We're weird people, okay? Like, I, there is high risk of, of awkwardness. And so I did my best to kind of vet people, make sure that,

[03:34] Gabe: you know, everybody seemed sane and reasonable and everybody reached out. Was,

[03:38] Gabe: but there was, there were generally good reactions.

[03:40] Travis: Like, people were generally.

[03:42] Gabe: Yeah, yeah, for, for sure. You know, I made it, I made it clear. I, you know, I keep things pretty light, right, with the channel and the content. I do. But I, I, I took this pretty seriously, right.

[03:51] Gabe: I wanted to make sure that I was getting a good, good group of people, that I did the best I could to make sure that, you know, people would be able to get along.

[03:58] Gabe: But there's still a lot of risk there, right, because these are people who,

[04:01] Gabe: who I never met.

[04:03] Gabe: So.

[04:04] Travis: Yeah.

[04:04] Gabe: But at the end of the day, it ended up working out great.

[04:07] Gabe: So I say there were some people who I'd never met. You know, my teacher was there. I've met him and his girlfriend. I'd met the two of them before.

[04:14] Gabe: There's a buddy who I know from Go who I'd never met in person but talked to plenty of time, so I knew the three of them were going to be okay.

[04:21] Gabe: And then we got Clossius and his wife.

[04:25] Gabe: I assumed that that was going to be,

[04:27] Gabe: that that was going to be fine. But then, you know, the other guys who showed up, I had never met them, you know, never even talked to them, just emails.

[04:33] Travis: Right?

[04:34] Travis: Yeah. And, and for those of you who don't know, like, Clossius is like an awesome content creator, great teacher for anybody in the double-digit kyu level?

[04:40] Gabe: Yeah,

[04:41] Gabe: yeah, but no, it was, it ended up working out better than I thought it was going to.

[04:46] Gabe: Again, high, high risk of there just being a lot of awkwardness. But no, everybody was, everybody was really cool, really chill.

[04:53] Gabe: It was a lot of fun to have the house to go back to at the end of the day. And we had like four boards set up and we, we didn't play too many games, but there were lots of reviews.

[05:02] Travis: Right.

[05:03] Gabe: We would just go back and we would just like review each other games for a few hours or not.

[05:07] Travis: Right.

[05:07] Gabe: You know, if people are tired, they could just go, you know, lie down on the couch and take a nap. But it was, it was cool. It was a really, it was a really fun experience.

[05:14] Gabe: I'm really glad I did it. Unlikely I'll be able to do it again. It was a lot to set up and, you know, can really only do it if it was staggered, like every four years or so in a place that I could drive to.

[05:24] Gabe: But I am, I'm, I'm glad I did it. I'm glad it did come together.

[05:28] Travis: Was there anything that surprised you about it that you didn't think you would get out of it or anything like that?

[05:36] Gabe: Um, I'm not so sure. I guess the only, the only thing that surprised me is I guess there, there wasn't much awkwardness because again, there was that there was that high risk.

[05:45] Gabe: So I was surprised actually that. I'll take that back. The one thing that surprised me is that everybody showed up. Even with, like, even with setting everything up. I was like, you know, I'm like, I'm giving this a 50% chance that everybody actually shows up because again,

[05:58] Gabe: yeah,

[05:59] Travis: they're giving you that rule where it's like, if you invite X number of people to an event or to a thing, maybe 10% don't walk in the door. So. Wow. Everybody showed.

[06:08] Gabe: And so, yeah, I, you know, I, I was like, hey, you know, hopefully everybody shows up. I would not be surprised if,

[06:14] Gabe: you know, we only ended up getting 10 or 11 in the house. But nope, all 12 people showed up. And yeah, it was just, it was a lot of fun.

[06:22] Travis: I think I speak for others to say, like, what a great way to continue to give back to the community. So that, that's really cool. Appreciate you doing that.

[06:30] Gabe: Yeah, no, I was mainly, I was just like, I'm happy that I was able to, you know, be in a position that that's something I could do. Right. Obviously, you know, that's not something I had to do there, but I'm glad that I was in a position probably fortunate enough to.

[06:42] Gabe: To be in a position where I could do that. And so I'm glad that just. I'm glad that it came together.

Gabe's First Go Congress and Beginner Workshop

[06:46] Travis: The other thing that was great about this event in the US was that you, Gabe, with your Struggle Bus Go YouTube channel and your teaching, were able to do one of the double-digit kyu workshops.

[07:01] Travis: Could you just tell us a little bit about first, what it was like going to your first Go Congress, and then second,

[07:07] Travis: what was it like doing the workshop? What was it like being. Being in a large group where you probably got to interact with a lot of folks that actually, you know, watch and listen to your videos?

[07:16] Gabe: Yeah, it was.

[07:18] Gabe: It was really cool. But so, Travis, I'm gonna be honest. Go Congress. It was a lot.

[07:23] Gabe: It was awesome, but it was. Let me tell you, it was a lot.

[07:28] Travis: So you signed up for a lot? You signed up for a lot.

[07:30] Gabe: Oh, I did. I did. But even so, I mean, it's eight days you're playing. You know, there are six games in those eight days.

[07:37] Gabe: The games are like two and a half to three hours long, especially for somebody like me who's slow. And then you're reviewing the games afterwards. And then there are the pro workshops.

[07:45] Gabe: And it was awesome. But it was. It was a lot. And for the. The workshop that, I was. I was really happy I was able to do that. I. I reached out pretty early to the event coordinator and reached out and said, hey, this is something that.

[07:56] Gabe: Something I'd like to do. Um, and so, yeah, so I got to do one of the double-digit kyu workshops,

[08:01] Gabe: and it was a lot of fun. I really enjoy interacting with people. I really enjoy meeting new people. And that was actually one of the cool things. Probably the most enjoyable part of Congress for me overall was the people who came up because they specifically wanted to meet me and talk to me.

[08:17] Gabe: I thought that that was really cool. And it's like I got there midday Saturday and just sat down and actually played a game with a buddy. And, like, people were just walking up and introducing themselves.

[08:26] Gabe: And I thought that was.

[08:27] Gabe: That was really neat. But, yeah, the. The lecture that I did was. Was really fun. We had some technical difficulties at the beginning. I was unable to connect my laptop to the monitor there.

[08:37] Gabe: So kind of had to,

[08:39] Gabe: you know, make do for the first 10 minutes without actually having my presentation and kind of use the. The stand up board to create the board positions as opposed to just having the.

[08:49] Gabe: The SGFs up. But other Than that. It was, it was a lot of fun. I was surprised with how many people showed up. I don't know how many people that room could fit,

[08:56] Gabe: but the room was, was mostly full.

[08:58] Travis: I was there in person, for the record, but it was, it was full. So I think it was, you know, 50 people easily.

[09:04] Gabe: I was going to say we probably, I probably had like 40 to 50 people there. And if you think about that, that's wild. So that's 10, that's almost 10% of the people who showed up to Congress were, were at this lecture.

[09:14] Gabe: And I thought that was, I thought that was really neat. So I, I really, I really enjoyed that.

[09:19] Travis: And what was the topic you discussed?

[09:21] Gabe: The topic that I went over was when to sacrifice or save stones.

[09:26] Gabe: And you know, one of the key things with that, I really enjoy giving this lesson because so we all play Go. We all understand how hard it is and you know, we've studied various topics that, you know, you study them and they kind of make sense a little, but then you try to apply them to your game and it's really,

[09:43] Gabe: really difficult. Like you can learn how to use thickness and you can learn how to use sabaki, but it's like actually applying that. It's, it's actually really difficult. But you know, to look at, you know, when you can actually just sacrifice a group of stones,

[09:56] Gabe: it's actually pretty straightforward and you can apply it pretty quickly to your game. And so I, I thought that was a perfect topic to go over. I had some good examples that, that I showed and so I think that worked out really well.

[10:08] Gabe: And then one of the really fun things was the game I played the day before the lecture. I actually ended up sacrificing a pretty, a pretty big group of stones in a very strategic way.

[10:18] Gabe: And so I was like, this is now going to be the main example.

[10:21] Gabe: So, so it was, it was fun how I was able to connect to that.

[10:25] Travis: And the nice thing too was that after watching your lecture later on through, I guess pure luck, one of the North American professionals, Ryan Li,

[10:35] Travis: gave that lecture, or his third lecture, I think, and over the whole course of the Congress,

[10:42] Travis: and it was this even more advanced version of what you were talking about from a, you know, sacrificing stones perspective, and he went through a game with one of the greatest players of all time, Go Seigen.

[10:54] Travis: And just showed all the different ways, if you really know what you're doing,

[10:58] Travis: how to sacrifice a group and make it count many times over in a game, which I'll admit I didn't understand every aspect of it because I just, it's, it's so high level but it really tied in nicely with what you were teaching.

Sponsor Break

[11:13] Travis: This episode is sponsored by Baduk Pop, the app that makes learning Go fun and accessible with interactive puzzles, bite-sized lessons and an AI tutor to guide you step by step.

[11:24] Travis: It's perfect for players on the move. You can download it or learn more@badukpop.com that's b a d u k p o p dot com.

[11:34] Travis: This episode is also sponsored by SmartGo One, the all-in-one Go toolkit for Apple devices.

[11:40] Travis: Replay professional games,

[11:42] Travis: solve problems and keep your SGF collection organized all-in-one elegant app.

[11:46] Travis: Check it out@smartgo.com or wherever you go to get your apps.

[11:53] Gabe: Yeah, I'm right there with you on that. I was in that lecture and I struggled to understand what was going on there until like, you know, the pieces actually fell into place.

[12:02] Gabe: But yeah, that was obviously taking it to a whole nother level. That was not only sacrificing the group, but you're going to capture these stones, but you are going to pay for it dearly for doing it.

[12:12] Gabe: Mine was much more straightforward and simple than that. But yeah, no, it was pretty, it was pretty wild seeing what, you know, like a real Go player can do with stuff like that.

Will Gabe Return to Congress?

[12:21] Travis: Yeah, no, it was, it was fun. So will this be your last Congress? Will this be your first of many? What do you think?

[12:29] Gabe: So I was, I was convinced, I was fully convinced that I was going to go to this congress and be like, this is going to be my thing now. I'm going to want to go every single year and how am I going to make this work?

[12:42] Gabe: That didn't happen again. I had so much fun. I absolutely loved it. I'm so glad that I went, but it was a lot, especially I've got a young family, so it was not easy on them for me to be gone for a week.

[12:54] Gabe: But also,

[12:55] Gabe: I can't imagine having that week long. Just crazy mind training energy and then bookending it with a travel day and a travel day right here. Like, I, I drove a little over an hour to get there.

[13:09] Gabe: It was very easy.

[13:11] Gabe: Um, but one of the guys who stayed in the house, he, you know, he flew from California, right. Like he had a full travel day on both ends. It's like I can't even imagine.

[13:19] Gabe: And so, yeah, so next year it's in Seattle. And while I would absolutely love to go because I've never been to the Pacific Northwest, I'd love To go there. I know a lot of people there and I know I'd have a lot of fun, but I'm like, I can't,

[13:29] Gabe: I can't justify this. Maybe when the kids are older, right. And they're out of the house and I can just go and do whatever I want then. Sure. But I think for the time being,

[13:35] Gabe: my guess is every three or four years,

[13:38] Gabe: when it's within, you know, a six hour drive,

[13:40] Gabe: right. Or you know, a very short plane ride, then, you know, then I'll probably do it. Um, and my guess is, yeah, every three or four years it'll, it'll be something like that.

[13:48] Gabe: So I think that's probably the, the cadence. I absolutely want to go back like it was, it was fun. But yeah, it's definitely something that I probably have to budget a little more.

[13:57] Gabe: A little more like time to, to actually be able to do it.

[14:02] Travis: Well, Gabe, thanks so much for this. I appreciate it.

[14:04] Gabe: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Historic Go Boards with Vianka Singh

[14:24] Travis: Next up, we're going to transition to a conversation with someone who has been putting out really interesting articles about eight ancient Go boards from different places as sort of a hobby, researching where they came from, why they're designed the way they are.

[14:40] Travis: This first popped up online some time ago,

[14:44] Travis: maybe as long as six months to one year ago. And so I connected with her and her name is Vianka, so I was able to set up a conversation with her.

[14:53] Travis: She's based in Spain currently,

[14:55] Travis: and we had a fun conversation. So I'm going to take you to that now.

[15:02] Travis: Vianka, thank you so much again for joining me.

[15:05] Vianka: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

How Vianka Found Go

[15:08] Travis: Let's start by learning a little bit more about your background. So you said in your emails, between you and me, that you describe yourself as a longtime board game enthusiast.

[15:18] Travis: What took you from playing classical board games to deciding, you know what? I want to research about them and write about them?

[15:28] Vianka: Well, I started playing board games from a really young age.

[15:32] Vianka: My father and brother were really interested in chess,

[15:35] Vianka: so they taught me the basics of that game. And then games like checkers and backgammon. And then, well, I got interested and I discovered go on my own.

[15:45] Vianka: And when I began to play these games, I naturally picked up little details or fun facts like how old they are,

[15:54] Vianka: how long they've been played, where they came from,

[15:57] Vianka: and just learning these little interesting tidbits. I wanted to know more. And the more I learned, the more I studied it. And I just, I really love the way that board games are such an international phenomenon.

[16:11] Vianka: From all of these different countries and cultures.

[16:15] Travis: What was your first encounter with the game of Go?

[16:20] Travis: And how did you find yourself focusing on Go specifically instead of those other games that you've also found interesting, like chess?

[16:29] Vianka: Well, I was actually part of the Hikaru no Go wave, so, hey, all right.

[16:35] Vianka: Yeah,

[16:36] Vianka: I started go around 8 or 9 when I discovered the manga. And so at that time, the only place I could really play was online.

[16:46] Vianka: I started to play pretty consistently every day,

[16:50] Vianka: and it just felt so much better than other games, I think, because when you play online, it's sort of impersonal. You don't have that sort of pressure or feel that competitiveness.

[17:03] Vianka: And it felt like a really meditative experience for me.

[17:07] Vianka: And I just think that complemented the way that I felt best approach games.

[17:15] Vianka: It suited me really well, and I just fell in love with it. And then the rest is history, you know.

[17:21] Travis: Do you still play regularly or not as much?

[17:24] Vianka: I try to play at least weekly. Like, there are some years where I play every single day, and then there are some years where I play, like a couple times a month, you know,

[17:36] Travis: in your mind, would you find about Go that makes it a particularly interesting game? When you think about these, like, classical

[17:43] Vianka: board games,

[17:44] Vianka: the thing that first drew me to Go was how mysterious it seemed. You rarely hear about it in the Western world.

[17:53] Vianka: So when you start playing it and you get into it, you think maybe this is a new invention.

[17:59] Vianka: You know, that's why you don't really see it in media so much.

[18:03] Vianka: And then, well, you look into it and it's thousands of years old.

[18:07] Vianka: And I find that with Go, everything is so layered.

[18:11] Vianka: Like, even looking at a regular Go board or a traditional Japanese Go board,

[18:17] Vianka: it's like, okay, it's a grid and these black and white playing pieces,

[18:21] Vianka: but in reality, it's not a perfect square. It's a bit of a rectangle for, you know, the perspective of the players. And then the stones are a little slightly different sizes, and everything has such care put into the craftsmanship of these games.

[18:37] Vianka: And I just thought that was really, really interesting.

[18:40] Vianka: You could say chess is similar, but I think with Go,

[18:44] Vianka: I was really attracted to how difficult it was to find this information and then the sort of feeling you get when you learn more.

[18:54] Travis: So, like you said, there's all these little aspects of the game that really can make it interesting, particularly the aesthetic aspects. So for listeners who mostly think of Go as sort of this, like, clean abstract strategy game, what do you think they might be surprised to learn when they Start looking at,

[19:12] Travis: like, the history of Go board stones and those sorts of things.

[19:17] Vianka: The thing that fascinated me most when I began to really go into the history of Go is that there are so many theories about how it originated.

[19:29] Vianka: And a lot of those theories have a very sort of spiritual tinge to it. You know,

[19:36] Vianka: there is one theory that Go was made as a calendar, like a cosmological calendar.

[19:44] Vianka: Right.

[19:45] Vianka: And then there's another theory that it originated as a form of divination that evolved into a game.

[19:52] Vianka: Seeing those sort of mystical elements alongside a game that you think of as so much like a formula that you have to solve. You know, it's very analytical.

[20:04] Vianka: It's a really interesting contrast.

Historic Star Point Designs and Sunjang Go

[20:07] Travis: Maybe we can turn to the first article you wrote,

[20:11] Travis: which was called Some Historic Star Point Designs.

[20:16] Travis: In that article,

[20:17] Travis: a key focus is on the part of the Go board that I think a lot of Go players know very well. The star points.

[20:25] Travis: What made you realize that they actually had a bit more of a unique and varied history than just what meets the eye?

[20:34] Vianka: It's actually quite funny. I took it for granted for the longest time,

[20:39] Vianka: and I was reading through this book by Stewart Culin.

[20:45] Vianka: It was published in the 1800s.

[20:48] Vianka: So I started to read this book book,

[20:50] Vianka: and it was about board games from East Asia.

[20:55] Vianka: And I saw a diagram of a Go board with 17 star points and the regular Japanese star points, the more conventional star points we see today.

[21:06] Vianka: It's a single dot in the center of intersections. But in the diagram in the book, it had these star points that were indicated by about two to four dots on the corners of the intersection.

[21:19] Vianka: And I thought,

[21:20] Vianka: what a strange misprint.

[21:22] Vianka: They must have gotten something wrong somewhere.

[21:25] Vianka: And then I started to look into it, and I discovered this whole world of variation and star point designs.

[21:31] Travis: So you write about these. What you call these Korean flower points, and you talk about their connection to kind of a different or older form of Go called Sunjang Go, which I know is attached more to Korea and that sort of part of the world.

[21:49] Travis: How did learning about these older Korean board designs change how you think about the aesthetics of the game?

[21:56] Vianka: Well, I think that we understand Go through the lens of the Japanese history of it, and so they tend to approach it more as a euphemism for cosmology. So you have the star points, the.

[22:14] Vianka: And you have the Tengen,

[22:16] Vianka: and it feels a bit ethereal in a way.

[22:19] Vianka: But when you look at the flower points, I think, and the older variations of Go,

[22:24] Vianka: it feels very distinctly earthly.

[22:28] Vianka: It gives it that sort of aesthetic impression. And you can really see it in some of these board designs that feature very organic components like flowers and plants and animals.

[22:40] Vianka: It's a really interesting contrast.

[22:43] Travis: You know, it's so funny, too, because what you found, and I love the pictures that you got or the designs were of really high quality. So I love how you. You made choices there.

[22:54] Travis: You're like, okay, if this looks of decent quality, I'll put it in the article. If they aren't, I won't. And you even laid out, I don't know if it's in this article or another one.

[23:05] Travis: You show some other ways that a flower point or star point can be shown. Actually. Yeah, you do. In the middle of the article. I love it. There was this one where it shows four different, almost like L shapes and then they're put into different positions.

[23:23] Travis: And it was so interesting how I was using YouTube the other day,

[23:27] Travis: and I'm trying to click the button, the icon to make it full screen, and I'm like,

[23:31] Travis: whoa. I'm like, that's exactly the same icon that Vianka was showing in her article.

[23:36] Travis: So it's really cool to hear, like,

[23:39] Travis: not only the earthly aspects with these flower petals and things, but just these other icons that we even see today. So I just thought that was really interesting.

[23:50] Vianka: Yeah. The aesthetics are very universal in a way.

[23:54] Travis: So you remind readers who are less familiar with the game that again, star points are not just decorative. Right. They're not just aesthetic, but they could be used for a lot of useful things that we use.

[24:03] Travis: So, like starting positions, handicap placement. Right. How we count.

[24:08] Travis: It's a really important reference on the board so that you can say, okay, I'm playing in this part of the board or that part of the board,

[24:15] Travis: how much can the style and number of star points like you referred to before tell us about the cultural context of Go in different places and time periods?

[24:26] Vianka: From my perspective, I think the star points,

[24:30] Vianka: they're very useful in figuring out where a board originated.

[24:35] Vianka: So in terms of what region and what time period.

[24:39] Vianka: And I think it gives us some insight into the aesthetics of the culture. So, for example, in the sandalwood board,

[24:48] Vianka: it's the space figurative flower points, whereas in a lot of traditional Korean boards, it is the dots.

[24:58] Vianka: And I think it is really interesting as an aesthetic, but I don't know how much you could really tell us about the particular cultures of the time.

[25:07] Vianka: But it is a fascinating way to date boards and to find their origin.

The Sandalwood Goban

[25:13] Travis: It is fascinating. So in that second article, which is a great segue, and you call it the Origins of the Sandalwood Goban.

[25:20] Travis: You start by saying that the board is often mentioned in Go history, but rarely discussed in depth.

[25:26] Travis: When you wrote that article,

[25:29] Travis: was there something originally that made you stop and think, huh? Like there's something more interesting here. Was it all the aesthetic aspects you were just talking about, or was there something more specific?

[25:40] Vianka: Well, when you see the board, it. It's so striking.

[25:44] Vianka: Like different elements of its design,

[25:47] Vianka: the inlays, the colors used.

[25:50] Vianka: It is a very attractive board. But so around the board, there are different inlays of various animals and objects.

[25:58] Vianka: And one of those animals presented in the board was a camel. And I thought, wow, that's an unusual feature for an East Asian board.

[26:07] Vianka: And then I researched a little bit into it, and I saw that it also included a Sri Lankan sandalwood that is such an exotic material to be found so far away from Sri Lanka.

[26:21] Vianka: Even at that time, with such advanced. They had quite developed trading routes at that time, but it's still unusual, you know. And so the minute I heard about these influences from West Asia and South Asia, I just really wanted to figure out more about this board, like where it came from,

[26:41] Vianka: who made it, like the particular craftsman, even though that's lost the time, but at least we could figure out where it was made.

[26:50] Vianka: So I tried to divine that through the article.

[26:54] Travis: The 17 flower points seem to be one of the strongest clues for a Korean, or as you call it, the Baekje people,

[27:03] Travis: connection back to that place for listeners who know only the modern Japanese style star points. But why are these flower points historically important? Is there any anything else that we should know about that?

[27:17] Vianka: Well,

[27:18] Vianka: the Sunjang Go variants found in Korea,

[27:22] Vianka: they use an arrangement of black and white stones on the board before the game actually begins.

[27:29] Vianka: And so that's really specifically the reason why a lot of traditional Korean Go boards have 17 star points.

[27:37] Vianka: So it's those 16 positions plus one for the tengen.

[27:41] Vianka: And you don't really find that anywhere else.

[27:45] Vianka: There are some Tibetan Go boards that have more than nine star points,

[27:51] Vianka: but of course they use a different symbol like circles or crosses, or even just dots in the center.

[27:59] Vianka: So this star point design that you see on the sandalwood board, it's a very compelling piece of evidence,

[28:04] Vianka: especially for the time period that the board was created in.

[28:09] Vianka: So it is from the 700s, so it's 1,300 years old. It's very, very difficult to really figure out what was going on at that time.

[28:21] Vianka: But we know through modern Korean Go that These star points have existed for an extremely long time.

[28:30] Vianka: It only really died out in the early 1900s.

[28:33] Vianka: So I think that's probably the most compelling piece of evidence in terms of finding the origin of the board itself. The thing that really pushed me over the edge in, like, saying, okay, well, this has to have been made in Korea was that alongside the board, they discovered these Go stones.

[28:56] Vianka: And these Go stones are recorded as being gifted from Korea at the time.

[29:03] Vianka: And they have these designs on them that are very, very unique. They're these bird designs, right?

[29:09] Travis: Yes.

[29:10] Vianka: And you would think a board that was so ornately created would come with stones, but there aren't any stones associated with it. So people have suggested that these stones are directly linked to the board,

[29:25] Vianka: therefore it must be from Korea.

[29:29] Vianka: Another phrase that I saw that just.

[29:32] Vianka: It was too good to not include.

[29:35] Vianka: Someone suggested that the stones included these bird icons because when placed on the flower points, they seem like a bird perched on a branch. And I thought that was.

[29:47] Vianka: That was just too lovely. It had to be connected.

[29:50] Travis: You know, it makes so much sense. Right. And you're like, yeah, I can't prove that these stones went with this board, but, like, come on.

[29:56] Vianka: Right, yeah, yeah, it's too good.

[29:59] Travis: Wow, that's really fascinating.

Alea Evangelii and Medieval Europe

[30:02] Travis: The third article that you've written that also has you focusing on, like, how it might be connected to go, or you ask the question, like, is there any history here that might be related to Go?

[30:14] Travis: Is the article titled A Trace of Go in Medieval Europe.

[30:19] Travis: So the article starts with a medieval European board game diagram that looks surprisingly similar to a Go board.

[30:26] Travis: Tell us about that. Like, what first caught your attention about that game.

[30:31] Vianka: Yeah, it's a really surprising diagram in the context.

[30:36] Vianka: So it was found in a manuscript from the 12th century,

[30:41] Vianka: and in that manuscript it has the four Gospels,

[30:45] Vianka: and it's given a description, Alea Evangelii.

[30:50] Vianka: So I believe it's on the first couple of pages you would find the diagram and a short description of what the diagram includes. And in that description, we know that the diagram refers specifically to a board game.

[31:04] Vianka: It's not just a design.

[31:08] Vianka: And strangest thing is that not only are the game pieces played on the intersections of the lines, but it has 19 by 19 lines.

[31:19] Vianka: And that just seems like the most compelling connection to go, because what else on earth has those two elements combined?

[31:28] Travis: Right.

[31:29] Vianka: And so I started to look into the diagram and what it could potentially mean.

[31:35] Travis: And you explained in the article that the evidence does not actually end up really,

[31:41] Travis: you know, supporting it. I Think listeners should go and take a look themselves. But what ended up making the decision for you? That maybe this is a little bit more coincidental than it is,

[31:54] Travis: you know, a literal connection.

[31:56] Vianka: Yeah, it was really tough to come to that conclusion because you instinctively want there to be a connection, you know.

[32:03] Travis: Right.

[32:04] Vianka: But there are two bits of evidence that people usually point to. So 19 by 19 lines, that seems like such an arbitrary number. It's not like a clean 10.

[32:15] Vianka: But we have found archaeological evidence of gaming boards found in Europe that also have that grid number.

[32:23] Vianka: They also date back to approximately the same period as the diagram.

[32:29] Vianka: Then another piece of evidence is that the game pieces go on intersections.

[32:34] Vianka: And we've got games like Nine Men's Morris and even the precursor for Checkers. These game pieces were played on the intersections. So those are the two bits of evidence that people usually point to.

[32:48] Vianka: There's nothing else in the text, unfortunately, points to go.

[32:52] Vianka: And then. Well,

[32:54] Vianka: we know that the way board games are transmitted from location to location is that it usually spreads very slowly from community to community.

[33:04] Vianka: So the idea of board games sort of finding its way halfway around the world without any evidence or any trace of a route, it's unfortunately not very believable. Barring further evidence,

[33:18] Vianka: we're going to have to accept that it was a unique invention at the time.

[33:24] Travis: Too good to be true, it seems.

[33:26] Travis: But it's still. This was like what I think made the article just fun, which is like, hey, let's try to find this connection. And then you kind of work your way through that.

[33:34] Travis: And it was really interesting.

[33:36] Travis: You suggested that the medieval game diagram, the Alea Evangelii,

[33:42] Travis: may have been more symbolic or religious than practical.

[33:47] Travis: In your mind, what does that mean? Like, how might a board game be used to represent bigger ideas here?

[33:54] Vianka: This interpretation of the diagram relies heavily on the game board as a sort of canvas.

[34:01] Vianka: The arrangements of game pieces on a board,

[34:04] Vianka: especially in the beginning of a game,

[34:06] Vianka: it sort of inherently represents a balance between opposing forces.

[34:13] Vianka: And so I think approaching it from that perspective,

[34:18] Vianka: it's natural to draw a parallel between that visual and the idea of physical forces you might see in the world, or even just philosophical forces like good versus bad,

[34:32] Vianka: chaos versus order.

[34:34] Vianka: Using that sort of lens, I think the arrangements of game pieces on a board can really convey a lot of complex ideas in philosophy and in spirituality even.

[34:48] Travis: It does really remind you of, like, yin and yang. Right. Like, all those things tie in so much.

The Giron and Board Games as Cosmology

[34:54] Travis: So you compare this medieval Irish diagram with a Korean Go text called the Giron.

[35:01] Travis: And even if there's no direct connection between them. Vianka, what makes that comparison interesting?

[35:10] Vianka: I think it is quite intuitive if you see both of them side by side, because they both include 19 by 19 lines, but also a radial arrangement of game pieces.

[35:23] Vianka: There are some game pieces along the edge of each diagram, but the primary focus is at the very center of the board,

[35:31] Vianka: where the game pieces are sort of arranged in a very elaborate way.

[35:37] Vianka: The Giron is especially interesting because it hasn't been formally analyzed yet. I think it is only recently rediscovered.

[35:46] Vianka: And in the text,

[35:49] Vianka: from what I could find in my research,

[35:52] Vianka: the writer was trying to convey the I Ching philosophy.

[35:57] Vianka: So that's the philosophy that sort of predates Yin and Yang, but it was one of the ideas that led to later concepts like yin and Yang.

[36:07] Vianka: So the author used this sort of aesthetic to convey a sense of balance in the world.

[36:13] Vianka: And when you look at it side by side with the Alea Evangelii, you see that they were both getting at the same thing about the energy in the world.

[36:22] Vianka: I thought that was such an interesting comparison,

[36:26] Vianka: especially aesthetically speaking. Cause they look so similar.

[36:31] Travis: And it's funny cause on the Giron, it's like, you see these, like,

[36:34] Travis: X kind of shapes, you see these lines. And so there's very much like a sense of symmetry, like you've talked about before. But it is funny how like, the shapes, though, end up being so different.

[36:45] Travis: And even how you think about over time, when you think about like the top level of players playing the game of Go,

[36:53] Travis: how the aesthetic and the shapes on the board could be quite different in Japanese culture. And when Japanese Go was. Was in its heyday,

[37:03] Travis: you saw this very specific set of, like, patterns that you play and don't play because it looked correct or it looked right. And then you go into other forms. Like today, I would imagine when you look at like the top level games, like, I can't even understand them because they're just so.

[37:20] Travis: I would say messier in like, a very crude sense. So that's really interesting.

[37:25] Vianka: They say at some periods Go players would balance the aesthetics of a particular move in tandem with whether it was like, strategically beneficial.

[37:36] Vianka: So it's a really interesting dynamic there.

[37:39] Vianka: People are drawn to these sort of images with the play of black and white. Because you see that with Alea Evangelii and the Giron, it seems like the Yin and Yang is more universal than you might initially assume.

[37:52] Travis: Right?

[37:53] Travis: Yeah, exactly right. This concept of duality is so present in a lot of different religions, a lot of different cultures,

[38:01] Travis: and then you also mentioned the. The I Ching, which is, I think, a very ancient Chinese text.

[38:07] Travis: And I know that has connections to things like, you know, Sun Tzu's the Art of War and tying this back to things like war and things like that and tactics.

[38:16] Vianka: Yeah.

Future Research: Go Board Craftsmanship

[38:18] Travis: What do you think the future holds for you in terms of, you know, just doing further research on classic board games, on the history of Go.

[38:27] Travis: Are there any particular artifacts or texts or cultures that you're interested in or you might be going towards?

[38:35] Vianka: I would really love to explore more the craftsmanship and creating actual Go boards. There's just so many different ways that Go boards have been made.

[38:47] Vianka: In particular,

[38:48] Vianka: there was a passage in the same book I mentioned by Stewart Culin where he was discussing the Korean Go board,

[38:58] Vianka: and he states that there was a mechanism underneath the Go board that allowed a particular sound to be played when a piece was played on board.

[39:10] Vianka: I thought that was really interesting. And initially I thought maybe it is like some sort of metal inlay and it's like a simple sort of design.

[39:19] Vianka: But then I keep seeing references to it.

[39:23] Vianka: There is a Go board in the British Museum, and in the description of the catalog,

[39:29] Vianka: it states that it was a series of wired connections, more like an instrument.

[39:35] Vianka: And I thought,

[39:36] Vianka: this is such an interesting design.

[39:40] Vianka: And when you try to find images of, like, okay, well, what does it look like under the Go board?

[39:47] Vianka: Unfortunately, the way that these boards were designed is that they were similar in size as the Japanese Goban.

[39:55] Vianka: However,

[39:57] Vianka: it was hollow inside, and there was a little hole at the bottom panel that sort of allowed the sound to be echoed out,

[40:05] Vianka: so it helped with the acoustics.

[40:07] Vianka: And I just can't find an image of what it looks like inside the internal box.

[40:13] Vianka: So I would love to learn more about the craftsmanship of a lot of these boards.

[40:19] Vianka: I have also been exploring works of Peter Shotwell, and he talks a bit more about Tibetan Go and how they use these fabric Go boards, which seems to make a lot of sense because a lot of the communities in the region are nomadic, and so.

[40:36] Vianka: Okay, that's easy to transport because they use textiles. That allows for a lot of different design elements to be included through embroidery.

[40:47] Vianka: I would love to see more work done in that, and I would love to explore that a bit more. There's also this phenomenon in Tibet of carving boards directly into these slabs of stone,

[41:02] Vianka: like these mini boulders.

[41:04] Vianka: And there's actually one that was recently rediscovered, I think, in 2015, and someone was able to do some research and wrote a research paper on it.

[41:15] Vianka: So I would love to explore just the variety in the craftsmanship and the materials used in Go boards across the world.

[41:24] Travis: That sounds like a lot of fun, and we look forward to whatever the next article is.

Lightning Round

[41:31] Travis: Vianka, maybe before I let you go, could we do, like, a little fun, like, lightning round?

[41:35] Vianka: Oh, sure. Yes.

[41:38] Travis: Do you have a favorite Go player? And who is that?

[41:43] Vianka: I don't follow professional Go too much,

[41:47] Vianka: but I think that my favorite Go player, who I revisit from time to time, is Lee Sedol.

[41:54] Vianka: His book Relentless is very compelling work of modern Go history.

[42:01] Travis: I think I will check that out. Thank you for the recommendation. If you could play Go in any setting or circumstance, what would it be?

[42:12] Vianka: I think my ideal setting to play Go would be to play it in the very middle of a hike.

[42:21] Vianka: When you are out here and you have that sort of introspective vibe going on, you know, there's no city noise, there's no distractions, and you could take as long as you want.

[42:35] Vianka: The thing about Go for me is that I like to play really long games.

[42:40] Vianka: I'm not into blitz games, and I think that kind of put me off online chess a bit.

[42:46] Vianka: So I love Go to be slow and meditative. That's how I appreciate it best.

[42:54] Travis: When you think about chess versus Go, of course, they're both great games. What's something that pulls you towards Go a little bit more? Like, certain aspects of it,

[43:06] Vianka: I think with Go,

[43:09] Vianka: it might be strange to say, because we as Go players have so much experience with these very heated fights on the Go board. But I feel like Go is a bit slower in terms of there are so many moves that aren't directly confrontational.

[43:27] Vianka: Whereas with chess, everything feels very like in your face, like everything that you. You do. It's very combative.

[43:36] Vianka: And I think I like Go because you could play a game that has more of a melody to it, you know,

[43:43] Vianka: a pacing that isn't so. So heated.

[43:47] Vianka: And I like that.

[43:48] Vianka: I like the slowness of it, really. And, well, the complexity, too.

[43:53] Vianka: It lends a little bit to the experience.

[43:57] Travis: Vianka, I think this is a great place to end our conversation. Anything else that you wanted to say before we go?

[44:04] Vianka: Not really. I had a really great time discussing these topics with you. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

[44:11] Vianka: I look forward to writing more about Go history and Go culture, and I hope to explore, like, even more interesting topics in the future.

[44:20] Travis: Well, sounds great, Vianka. Thanks so much.

Closing and Sponsor Thanks

[44:27] Travis: That is all the time that we have for this episode, so thank you so much for listening. And I will catch you next time.

[44:33] Travis: This is All Things Go

[44:51] Travis: Note I just want to thank again our sponsors for the episode SmartGo One is your all-in-one Go toolkit for iPhone, iPad and Mac. Whether you're replaying games, solving problems or managing your SGF files,

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