All Things Go Podcast

Giant Floor Go

[00:01] Travis: This episode is sponsored by BadukPop, SmartGo One, AI Sensei and Go Magic. I was doing my normal scan of the r/baduk subreddit. I came across a post from counting TLS. He does a lot of posts and some very interesting ones. And he mentioned and showed a link to this video from Joanne Missingham, who's a very famous professional Taiwanese Go player, on her YouTube channel. This super large floor goban video, it looked like almost like a TV show with some other big professional and amateur players. But it piqued my interest. I clicked on it, I looked at it, and it's pretty fascinating. They have these players play on a Go board that is the size of maybe a basketball court, maybe a little bit narrower than that, but really big. They play in two teams, five players in each team. And it was pretty fun to watch, mainly because one, they'd have to really move. Like, they'd have to run to get these huge Go stones, which I would say are about the size of a really small round tabletop.

[01:18] Travis: They would have to take them and kind of at times run across the court to get to the spot that they wanted to play. And secondly, the board was so big that from their perspective, very low on the ground. It must have been really hard to see now for the audience. And from our vantage point from the camera, they had raised the camera so you could see much better over top of the board. But very interesting idea for a TV show. I wonder what the ratings were for it in terms of viewership. So it was fun to see. And it was also fun to see some Go players running around and using their athletic prowess. So thought I would share that. This is All Things Go.

From Korean Insei to Anthropologist

[02:24] Travis: Our next guest was really interesting because not only does he have a background as a former Korean insei, he also took that experience of being a very strong Go player and being a former Korean insei to then pivot and go into a career in anthropology that leveraged that experience and looked at it from a lens of how AI has affected culture and society, particularly the Go culture in South Korea. So we're gonna listen to my conversation with Chimin Oh. Chimin, Thank you so much for being here.

[03:10] Chimin Oh: Yeah, thank you for the invitation. Yeah, it's a pleasure.

[03:14] Travis: I wanted to start with a bit of your background because it's a really interesting background and it leads a lot into the work that you're now doing as an anthropologist at Oxford and some of the field work that you're going to be undertaking for your doctoral program. You wrote up what you call an autoethnography that really talks a bit about your experiences personally as a Korean insei or as a Korean student to become a professional Go player. And that's actually going to prove to be pretty integral in terms of your research that you'll be undertaking in the coming months. And so I wanted to start by just going back to the beginning when you started playing Go at the age of around 6, which was in 1993. You give us a little bit of a backdrop of what the current situation was at the time, which is that some of the very best Korean players at the time, Lee Chang-ho, was really dominating the scene both domestically and internationally as a teenager, and that the South Korean economy was doing really well.

[04:21] Travis: And so there was a really big focus, it seems, or a lot of tailwinds for playing Go in Korea. Can you just tell us a little bit, Chimin, how was the decision made for you to become a Go student who would aspire to become a professional? Like, I think of my five and a half year old, who is just a little bit younger than you were, and it's like I can't even fathom saying, like, okay, we're going to put you into, you know, a Go school.

[04:49] Chimin Oh: Yes, well, at that time, of course, as you said, Lee Chang-ho was sweeping domestic and international tournaments. So I'm one of the kids. The Go education industry was booming, really. Go schools were basically mushrooming, you know, with all Go teachers, like promoting Go and then. Yeah. Also parents responded by sending them to these Go schools, hoping that their kids would become someone as strong as Lee Chang-ho. So my parents sent me to a Go school, my first Go school. But actually my parents were running a billiard club also because the South Korean economy was booming. There were lots of customers when the billiard tables were full and there were people waiting for their turn. You know, one of their activities was to play Go, because Go was back then very popular. I think I got fascinated by how they played the game in more static rather than dynamic. So yeah, that's why I asked my parents to send me to a Go school. And my parents thought maybe it was good because the Go was becoming very popular.

[06:07] Chimin Oh: Yeah, so it's a good way maybe to learn something new. So yeah, I went there maybe fortunately or unfortunately, I was very talented. So I had no opponent. My first Go school. But I faced some sort of reality when I was transferred to my second Go school. Everyone was stronger than me. I took four stones, five stones against some other players who became pros. Actually, they were like several years Older, some at my age, but I tried to catch up. So

[06:48] Travis: what memories are still in your brain from the early days of playing go?

[06:58] Chimin Oh: Well, when I was like 7 or 8, there was a sort of tournament held by my first go school. I was pretty weak. Say I was like 7-kyu 8-kyu. But I was improving quite fast. Yeah. So although there were a lot of strong players than I was, I managed to beat them, you know, some handicap games. And then at the final, I met the strongest player, much older, but still I managed to win against him. And I received a big goban. So that's kind of nice. Yeah, yeah. It was a very nice trophy for me. And then my parents were, you know, surprised, you know, in a pleasant way. So that's when I got, you know, more fascinated by this game. I think my progress was a bit, you know, faster than others. So I remember that my teacher focused more on what I was learning. And then I participated in some tournaments and I did pretty well. And then I moved Go schools, and there I was strongest player. So yeah, that's sort of memories. And also in tournaments, I was mostly the last one, you know, who stayed in the tournament.

[08:21] Chimin Oh: So everyone has returned to home. But still, you know, they, you know, kind of liked me, my teachers. Yeah. So that's some memories I can share. And then I moved to dojang in Daejeon and in Seoul. I mean, these stories are something else. It was much tougher professional training.

[08:45] Travis: And in the pre dojang memories, you're still going to traditional school, correct?

[08:51] Chimin Oh: Yes, that's correct. But my fifth year, when I reduced the number of hours at school. Yeah. So I think I did pretty well in school. But when I got a little bit more serious about this game, I had to just cut down the number of hours at school. So my grade, high school just dropped.

[09:13] Travis: Right. You talk about how you're doing these tournaments. You're doing fairly well, and that around the age of 15 and around the age of 12, you were winning some of these events, which. Which was really positive. But then you also talk about how despite those successes, there were certainly a lot of challenges. And you mentioned the fact that you had attempted the Pro qualification tournament 15 times without success. And at the age of 19, it sounds like there is sort of an aging out. Right. You're no longer allowed to continue in the process. And so when you think about that whole process of the Pro Qualification exam, can you just help us understand how is it set up? Is it much like a tournament where you're having maybe like a round robin set up or you're having like a best of three matches or a best of five matches. And do you have any vivid stories from that time of you or your fellow students really showing your stress or nervousness?

[10:21] Chimin Oh: Yes, I can still feel the pressure. I mean, when I talk about qualification tournaments, you know, I can imagine. Yeah. Failed 15 times. Yeah. But I mean, it's common. Yeah. Because I met a new pro recently and he told me that he had failed 20 times and finally he made it.

[10:40] Travis: That's incredible. Chimin.

[10:42] Chimin Oh: Wow.

Sponsor Message

[10:45] Travis: This episode of All Things Go is brought to you by our sponsors, each of them helping you learn, study and enjoy Go in new ways. First up is BadukPop, the app that makes learning Go fun and accessible with interactive puzzles, bite sized lessons, and an AI tutor to guide you step by step. It's perfect for players on the move. You can download it or learn more at badukpop.com that's b a d u k p o p dot com this episode is also sponsored by AI Sensei, your personal game review partner. Upload games and it instantly spots mistakes, offers stronger moves and helps you learn from each match. Give it a try at aisensei.com this episode is also sponsored by SmartGo One, the All in One Go toolkit for Apple devices where you play professional games, solve problems, and keep your SGF collection organized. All in one elegant app. I also really enjoy the library function and seeing dynamic diagrams of the actual game states in books.

[11:51] Travis: check them out at smartgo.com and then finally Go Magic, the interactive learning platform that makes Go come alive with structured video courses, exercises and lessons from top teachers. It's an incredible way to accelerate your Go journey. I personally love their Ghost mode in the puzzle section of the website. It's really great to try to practice moves without seeing them. You can find them at gomagic.org that's G-O-M a G I C dot org.

[12:26] Chimin Oh: Yes. So Go players are very used to failure. And maybe people have read the novel First Kyu. It vividly described how challenging it is to become a pro. And also the tournament system changes, you know, over time. During my time there were several stages. So fourth preliminary round there were two stages, like four people just play, you know, all together and then two people get to the next stage. So secondary preliminary round and then again four people in a group and two people get to the next stage. Stage one is very tough. You know where I mostly failed. Six players make one group and among them only two players get to the next Stage and then stage two, and then four people make a group and then among them just to get to the main round. Finally. Main round. And there were like 12 players, so we used to call full league. So 12 players played 11 games. So if someone made like a nine, two, meaning nine wins and two losses, I mean, they would be able to make a Pro and 8-3, if they are lucky. Yeah, they would become a pro.

[13:48] Chimin Oh: Or they might need to go through, you know, playoff.

[13:51] Travis: Yeah, playoff, sure.

[13:53] Chimin Oh: Yeah, that's very tough. So someone might play like 20 games and then the person would be allowed to lose three games or up to four games. Yeah, it's very tough. And as you go up to a higher stage, the opponents would get, you know, much stronger than the previous stages, as. Yeah, you can imagine. So, yeah, this is it. And it's very stressful. Yeah. Not only for me, but other fellow friends. And we became more sensitive and that we got easily angry, you know, with each other. Yes. Yeah. Not only us, but I think as much as us. It was our teachers who were more careful, you know, when we are training. Yes. So one memory I have is that my teacher gave me a review, like a commentary on my game. And then when I was doing very well, especially after winning national amateur tournament when I was 15, he severely criticized one of my moves. Yeah, I got really angry. And then I just left my Go school and I did it because I was very angry. So I was a little bit too immature.

[15:06] Chimin Oh: Yeah, Just in retrospective, but yeah, things can happen during this time. Yeah.

[15:14] Travis: I don't know how one would not be immature from the perspective of dealing with failing or losing at such a young age. And you also talk about how you did form sort of an addiction to computer games, which. I mean, I remember when I was a teenager, if I turned on the computer and played a game, all of a sudden I would look up and it would be like four hours later. Right. And it's just like. It's just so easy. But how do you think that focus on computer games either contribute to or lessen the pressure of succeeding as a Korean insei?

[15:56] Chimin Oh: Well, as long as you know when to stop. I think. Yeah, playing the games is a very, very good way to release one's stress, you know, emotional pressure. But the thing is that I didn't know when to stop, you know, endlessly indulge, you know, myself in doing computer games. And then actually that really didn't contribute to lessening my stress, unfortunately. Oh, and then when I sat in an Internet cafe, like overnight. Yes. Yes.

[16:27] Travis: Wow.

[16:28] Chimin Oh: So basically it had a contribute to. To the failure to become a professional player. But I think one good thing is that I never got addicted to computer games because, you know, I had this lesson that, you know, computer games, actually they are a bit dangerous

[16:50] Travis: when you think about what you were then kind of describing around what happens when you're in such a high pressure environment in this system in Korea for trying to become a professional Go player. You describe the fact that it's considered to be very taboo if you are playing at this level and you win the game. If you show any sort of obvious or overt pleasure or satisfaction over winning. It's really looked down upon and I really found it interesting why that might be. So could you just give us like a little bit of a recap? What are some of the things that are good reasons to really try to play down the impulse to say, haha, like I won, you know, like right there in front of the opponent.

[17:42] Chimin Oh: This is a very interesting aspect of the Korean culture or Asian culture, because maybe this could be the culture of Go, because you cannot play Go alone. You have your opponent sitting in front of you. And one quality to become a expert player is that you need to think about your opponent, what your opponent is thinking. So I think showing your satisfaction or happiness after winning actually is kind of against this quality to become a professional or just a strong player. So I think the teacher often emphasizes us to be more empathetic with our opponent. Otherwise, yeah, we will not be able to read what our opponent is reading. And if that happens, then your opponent will play somewhere you never anticipated. And this is when your Go game sometimes goes wrong. You know, just when you miss or overlook what your opponent is aiming at. So I think that's possibly a reason why. But there's some exceptions. I mean,

[18:54] Chimin Oh: some players are really genius, like people like Lee Sedol. He's really straightforward. I mean, he expresses himself what he's thinking. But I think that's because he can really read a lot more deeply than others. And just an example, I recently met a very talented kid from Europe, so. So I'm not sure if it's appropriate to reveal his name, but he's talented and I brought him to dojang and he lost three games yesterday, but the last game he won. yes, and he expressed, you know, his happiness. And the thing is that the rest of the kids, you know, Korean kids were looking at him, oh, what is this kid doing? Wow. Yeah, yeah. So because of this, the teacher, head teacher was very aware of this, so he Kind of gave a speech before he started the game yesterday. Okay, so this guy is from Europe, so his behavior might be different to yours. But yeah, this is not because he's disrespectful. This is because of the cultural difference.

[20:02] Travis: However, if that student were Korean and they did show a lot of overt satisfaction, it sounds like, yeah, it would very much be looked down upon. They would not look at that approvingly. It almost makes me wonder that it's considered a standard because like you said, as a, an aspiring professional player, you lose so often, right? I mean, even if you're doing really, really well, I think about some of the top players of all time, even if they're winning 60, 70% of their games, there's still 30 or 40% they're not winning. So I could certainly understand why it almost shapes you into being more tough and being more resilient to when you have losses because when you're winning, you're also not, you're not letting yourself get excited.

[20:58] Chimin Oh: Absolutely. That's something I couldn't really overcome. I mean, Go players are very used to failure, I mean, losing and yeah, so I couldn't really be satisfied because I was taught not to be satisfied with my, my wins. But you know, I was never taught how to deal with when I lose my games. So it was pretty difficult to handle when I lost. But still, I think this sort of training kind of helped me overcome the sense of defeat when I lost my games. But still losing my games, especially at a crucial stage, was extremely painful. But I think some people seem to cope with their losses better than others and these players have a better chance to become a professional player because we learn from our losses. And then there's so much to learn from such games. And you know, some strong minded players would look at their games they lose, you know, until they understand. I thought, yeah, Lee Chang-ho is a definitive case.

[22:07] Chimin Oh: Looked at the games he lost over and over and then he knew what his weaknesses were and then he really fixed them and then, yeah, that's one of the factors how he could become the best, best player in the world.

[22:21] Travis: And I do appreciate your openness about the fact that failure is such a big part of becoming a serious go player. I also want to remind the audience that you're currently ranked fourth in Europe as one of the top players, right? So even though you didn't achieve what you were looking for in Korea, you're considered again among the best players in Europe. And that's a very big deal. When you teach Your students, how do you try to help them overcome the sense of loss and failure when they lose?

[23:00] Chimin Oh: Yes, that's an interesting question. We are all human beings. It's sad to lose our games. But I imagine that level of stress, sense of defeat, might be weaker. It also depends on the player's level. I mean, this is part of my research. But if you approach this game as a leisurely activity, I think the level stress is lower for people who enjoy the game than people who play this game more seriously. But still, I often ask my students to learn from their mistakes. But, yes, here I know this is very painful. So, yes, implicitly say, oh, things went wrong from here. Yeah. So that's why we Asians are very good at, you know, hiding or just speaking something very implicitly. Okay, you clever played better or demo was interesting. But I mean, I heard that some players say, oh, you need to really translate, you know, when Asian players say. Because I understand that, you know, losing a game is always painful,

[24:16] Travis: I do think it is very much culturally rooted. Right. How each of us take defeat. I appreciate you referring to some of your research where you talk about the four different categories. Right. You have go professionals, go teachers, go learners, and then go enthusiasts. I'll really be interested to learn more about your field work. Hopefully we can have a second conversation to just see what you found. And it's funny, my go teacher happens to be an American, but he's of Asian descent. And I can certainly see when we're going through my games, whether they're games I've won or games I've lost, he goes through it in a way that's a little bit less emotional, it's a little bit more practical and sort of matter of fact. And he's not ignoring the emotion, but he's just kind of saying, like, hey, like, this is what we need to focus on to move forward and to learn from it. And I think that compliments my personality well, because I think it's very easy for me to go to an emotional place.

[25:20] Travis: It is also interesting, I'm curious because, you know, if you are teaching students, if they are enthusiasts, where it's really just a hobby for enjoyment, that can also be part of the allure of the game. Right. It's like, okay, the defeats feel horrible, but the wins can feel really good. And that can carry you to play more games.

[25:40] Chimin Oh: So, yeah, this is very interesting. Also, I often meet my students who really try hard to become a, you know, strong player. Some of them want to become. Yeah, one of the best players In Europe or in their own countries. So they're very ambitious.

[26:00] Travis: Yeah.

[26:01] Chimin Oh: Yeah. But some troubles happen. Yeah. When their performance doesn't meet their expectations, their goals. Okay, so the road to maybe 5 done, 4 done seems very far. Then what should I do? Because they're ambitious, but they still lose. And when they want to win, if they won this game, they could get promoted. But they lose such crucial games. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's very painful. And they lose more games sometimes than you know, they win. But as you said, they are extremely happy, you know, when they win a game. Yeah. So even if their win rate is 30%, meaning they fail a lot, but also they succeed, they win their game. So that's what makes Go plays happy, you know.

[26:47] Travis: Yeah. The show talking a little bit more about your experience with being a Korean insei. So you fail and it just doesn't happen as is what happens with a lot of Korean insei. You talk about the fact that because that was not achieved, you said, well, I missed about five years of sort of secondary education, that you became one of the so called Misaeng. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. It's a very interesting term. Could you just tell us a little bit about where it comes from and what it means in Korean culture?

[27:26] Chimin Oh: Yes. So Misaeng is basically a good term referring to a group that is not yet alive. So basically signifies precarious status or situation. Yeah. So because we didn't make a pro, we are in a precarious status, you know, without a pro status, then we need to go out somewhere to find a job or, you know, do something. Yes. This is quite a difficult reality to face, you know, when you just become an adult. So this is when I decided to become an international instructor. That's when I started English. So it was very difficult given the five year gap from my secondary education. So this is when most kids learn a lot from school. But I kind of sacrificed such an education for professional training and still I couldn't make a pro. And that's the reality many Go players really don't see on tv, you know, or go through. And then also because we are in the professional Go community, so called. So when we find a job, some of them do pretty well. But I think many of the aspiring Go professionals,

[28:51] Chimin Oh: they lack some social ability, you know, at work, so they have a very hard time. And the missing the Korean drama describes how things missing. The one who tried to become a pro but found a job at a big company struggles because of his legible sociability. But still, he's very good at some parts of the work given to him. So this is the kind of story. And yeah, I chose to learn English and teach Go in Europe, but looking at the main character in this drama, I felt, oh, this guy found a job because he had some connection with some CEO at the company. I was very envious. But you know, but I knew that my path was different, so I decided not to be too ambious. So I just pushed for my. My dream to catch up with my studies. And then, yeah, that's how I stepped into the world of anthropology and the anthropological research on the Go community, which I never intended long ago.

[30:05] Travis: What were the first steps that you took to say, oh, I might want to focus on anthropology? Because when I think about where you started, right? Saying, oh, I want to be a professional player to then having that not work out. Now I look at your situation and I say, okay, he's studying for his doctoral research at Oxford University, which is considered a top university in the world. It sounds like you did something right. So when you think about where you have gotten to, even though it was unexpected, I'd love to know more about how you found that path. And maybe the second question is, do you think your experiences as a Korean and say, developed a work ethic for you to succeed in this other area or do you think it was something that you already had in your character?

[31:08] Chimin Oh: Yeah, both are interesting questions. So let me respond to the first one. When we get out of yeongusaeng, because we turn like 19, we also make different decisions. Some people do, you know, something not related to go. Some people continue to study to become a professional player because most of us are very close to the professional level, of course. But I didn't choose to continue my Go training because I knew that I had quite a lot of qualities missing. One of them is how to overcome the sense of defeat, you know, the feeling. So I tried something unrelated to go. That's why I majored in international politics and anthropology in Australia. And then I just found that the studies were very interesting because they. That's something I couldn't do while I was training go, you know, professionally I had this five year gap. Although it was very difficult to catch up my studies, it was really, really good.

[32:21] Chimin Oh: And then also for my master's, I did something else, you know, public policy and international area studies, you know, hoping that I was wanted to do something else. But still I kind of felt some barriers or there's these, you know, smart Intelligent, you know, colleagues who excel, you know, these people had no gaps in education, went to medical school, international schools, you know, when they were younger. Yeah. So I felt like I was not really competitive. That's when I gave a presentation with Dr. Daniela Trinks. She's an expert in Go education now working at the Max Planck Institute in Germany. So we gave a presentation on the impacts of AI on Go education. That's when I realized that oh maybe I can broaden this research. And then I just realized that there's almost no one who was working on this research and I got fascinated. Oh well,

[33:24] Chimin Oh: that's why I can combine my knowledge and my experiences that I thought were dead. You know, when I do something else, when I completely downplay or just ignore such experiences, then you know, they are not really active. But yeah, so I felt that oh maybe I could activate, you know, the knowledge and experiences and combining into my anthropological research. That's how I could develop my research proposal. And then I got, you know, several offers from, you know, good universities. That's how I started my research. And your second question was about how my knowledge and experiences are helpful for my research work ethics? Yes, because when I was a yeongusaeng, whether I liked or not, I had to stay at dojang from 9am to 9pm so need to focus on your games, solving tsumego problems and we need to identify where things went wrong. Yeah, so I think that's really helpful. And the important skill set to be a good academic and not only, you know, academia. Also this skill set can be applied to other areas of work.

[34:47] Chimin Oh: You know, whether they are working at companies or just involved in teaching. I think yeah, these experiences are definitely relevant but it's very important to know how to apply these into what you are doing.

[35:03] Travis: I think to just think that you experienced so much challenge and obstacles when you went through the professional training. I have to imagine that it just made, it must have made these other things feel maybe not as daunting and not as terrifying to face obstacles. I'm not sure but it sounds like a wonderful chain of events that led you to this path. Now with anthropology, can you tell us a little bit more about your lead up to AlphaGo and the events of AlphaGo? So in your autoethnography you're talking about how at the time, right before AlphaGo and the Games were played against Lee Sedol, you really knew that you could beat the computer. The level of ability of the computer was not very strong. You even said that you were confident you could Give a four stone handicap and still beat the world's best computer program. You, you also talk a bit about the fact that, you know, the Overall reaction to AlphaGo playing Lee Sedol was sort of one of like just disbelief when AlphaGo just beat Lee Sedol 4 to 1.

[36:21] Travis: And that was true for you, and that was true for the Go community in general, I would imagine. Did it feel like a huge leap in advancement given how well you could play against a computer system previously?

[36:33] Chimin Oh: So I think the reactions might have been divided in the Go playing world and non Go playing world. If you are like a computer scientist, you would have been surprised, you know, in a pleasure. Okay, okay, that makes sense. Yeah. Such a technical breakthrough. But I belonged to the Go community once. I was a member of the Go community. This news was very shocking. Could be a little bit unpleasant because, you know, we kind of saw demise of our Go as we know it, because there was no strong players above him, you know, also, we never doubted Lee Sedol would just lose like this. But I was witnessing all the five matches real time and could feel the strengths of AlphaGo. And yeah, really, really couldn't believe it. And I would have been less shocked if a computer Go was a bit stronger. I mean, maybe, let's say if computer Go was two stones weaker than, you know, Lee Sedol.

[37:41] Chimin Oh: But I think it happened all of a sudden. And yes, I was like, oh, where did this computer come from? You know, out of nowhere. That was really shocking because no one was thinking, oh, maybe focusing on computer go. I mean, I wouldn't say no one, but most Go players, that was out of their focus. So that was surprising. You know, wow, crazy.

[38:05] Travis: You then talk a little bit more about your experiences as you go and travel to Oxford to start your program. Your Doctor of Philosophy and research. And this is about a year ago. And I liked how you described the sort of dissonance with which you approached some of the initial conversations around what your research was going to focus on. And you mentioned that your supervisor had recommended some key texts and advised you to be with another professor who specializes in leisure, pop culture and the movement of Japanese popular culture across the world. He said, Chimin. Here are some key texts on the anthropology of games. And it seems like when you heard that, you said, wait a second, games like this is not a game, like this is. This is serious. Like, I spent years and years and years honing this craft and doing this. So you kind of were talking to the fact that, you know, your path had been an extreme one and that you were carrying that Bias into the research.

[39:12] Travis: So was that difficult to overcome? Was it quick for you to step back and say okay I realize that this is not as serious for everybody else it was serious for my background. Was that something that you could easily move on and then really start getting into the preliminary research?

[39:32] Chimin Oh: So this is a very, very interesting question and also just reminding me of the discrepancy between the Go playing world and non Go playing world. I used to be surrounded by Go plays All cities think that Go is more than a game. There's some rules to abide by, you know there's this Go history, the history of you know, 2,000, 3,000 years and then also there's place like Shusaku and then year reddening game and you know, honingbo match but you know when I moved to Oxford I was surrounded by non Go players and when I say do you know Go and what is this, this game? And many of them knew, you know, what it was but you know I really need to explain the basics of Go and what happened, you know about the alphago who wouldn't mind the match But I think still they are very insightful that I'm biased. Yeah, they know, they know who I am they basically really, really reminded me of my positionality very well so I really appreciate the advice I shared. We think about this game from zero.

[40:44] Chimin Oh: Yeah so I'm doing, I'm trying to overcome my bias because as you said this is kind of innate aspects, you know, I might have in my mind so this is something that I should overcome to be more impartial or unbiased anthropologists But I know that it's impossible to be completely unbiased but this is such a fantastic, exciting exploration. I've already met many interesting people, many interesting events, phenomena that's happening around me so that's great.

[41:22] Travis: What's really exciting when I was starting to read about how you're going to start to set up your research is I was lucky enough to have a conversation with one of the other anthropologists that you cite quite a bit in your work Professor Marc Moskowitz and his work in China and with that backdrop maybe you can tell us a little bit more about how you're thinking about your research. What is the next two, three, five, six months looking like for you when you conduct your research? What is that going to look like and maybe what are some initial hopes that you are looking for out of that work?

[42:05] Chimin Oh: First of all I talk briefly over emails and Professor Marc Moskowitz is extremely insightful. He tried to intertwine China's nationalism with Go. That was very fascinating to me. So I had an opportunity to gain some advice from him. However, one of the main difference between us is that culturally speaking, I'm more of an insider. I played Go as an insei and definitely is an outsider who is very strong 7-dan if I remember correctly. But also we have different lenses so China's nationalism and I think my focus will be more on like a technical aspects like how people react to some, you know, weird openings like three, three, only 3-3 invasion. Right. How they react to sacrifice moves. And I have some friends who used to be insei. So we are sitting next to our teacher but he became a pro. Now as an adult, he teaches yeongusaeng, you know, current yeongusaeng. And you know what he tells me is very, very interesting.

[43:28] Chimin Oh: For example, about the kind of a changing environment sometimes caused by AI or something else. This is very interesting. And also because I used to be an insei, now I returned to dojang after 20 years. So I'm on.

[43:47] Travis: What was that like? Yes, I want to hear about it.

[43:50] Chimin Oh: Yes, I'm an old person at dojang. Maybe not quite old, you know, outside, but within dojang there's full of teenagers. Sometimes I get crushed because I don't know, some AI variation. Wow, that's amazing. Very interesting experience. Losing is very painful but this is going to be very helpful for my research and that really lessens my. My pain. So. Yeah, but this is a very interesting experience. Yeah, so this is what I'm doing with the kids, you know. I'm also having a talk with people at Korean Baduk Association, Korea Baduk Federation and I recently participated in the KPMC as an interpreter. So I played multiple roles and from this experience, various activities. Now I'm gathering data. Yeah, just little by little.

[44:43] Travis: What is your planned timeframe? How long are you going to be gathering data and information?

[44:49] Chimin Oh: Yeah, sure. To share a bit of my research plan. It can change, you know, all the time. I'm planning to stay in my dojang until January or February next year. And then I will be participating in the professional qualification tournament. After 20 years when I see, yeah. Many people ask me, oh, do you want to become a pro? But actually my answer is no because it's a good opportunity to play some serious games, you know. Serious tournament? Yeah. So that's what I would like to do. I mean, you know, not necessarily want to become a pro, but yeah, this is going to be a very Exciting adventure. I'm already meeting many interesting people, having wonderful experiences. Uh, I'm now kind of abusing my status as a researcher. That kind of allows me to meet many people and visit a lot of dojangs, you know, simultaneously. So I can kind of see some slight differences because dojangs use different AI programs, slightly different, you know, reactions to the advent of AI just to talk a little bit about, you know, such differences. And afterwards,

[46:03] Chimin Oh: if I can continue, I'm also planning to visit some field sites where I can observe some diverse reactions to AI. Could be a park where Go enthusiasts play. My hypothesis is that they are relatively not influenced by AI, but this could possibly be wrong. Many of my hypotheses have been proven to be wrong, actually so far.

[46:32] Travis: Are you also going to be looking at the more of the younger population? So like the Go schools that are maybe one tier lower? So maybe not like the professional programs, but maybe the. Like your first program?

[46:48] Chimin Oh: Absolutely, yeah. So the dojang where I'm going offers professional and analytical education, but I'm also planning to visit other non dojang, meaning that I think their learning environment will be different and the teachers would have different understandings of AI assisted education. Maybe some teachers might, you know, stick to the traditional way of teaching. So I would like to find out some tensions surrounding the introduction of AI. AI assisted education is given, but I think the choice depends on the teacher's preferences. I think that's another interesting area for my research, if that makes sense.

[47:36] Travis: It does. And I'm curious to see, because your argument with this research is that in looking at the Go community in Korea, where you had one of the earliest exposures to a successful AI system, you're really trying to see if there's something that can be learned or sort of shown when we have all the very, very significant changes in AI in other parts of life and in the world and how different populations and communities sort of interact with that technological change. So I'm really curious, before we end our conversation, Chimin, is there anything else that you wanted to say?

[48:20] Chimin Oh: Well, yeah. So I really hope that many people will get some sort of inspiration from my research because as you said, the Go community is experiencing AI driven changes earlier than other fields where AI is still emerging. And also I am still trying to look for some funding opportunities. So if any of you knows, any individuals or parties who could possibly support my research, I would really appreciate your advice or any comments or things like that.

[48:57] Travis: Great. That sounds good. So thanks again for the time and we look forward to hearing more.

[49:04] Chimin Oh: Okay, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Next Steps for the Australian Go Scene

[49:22] Travis: Shifting back to my conversation with Gazza White, I did want to ask, given the fact that he is in Australia and he's fairly tapped into the go scene there, what is on the horizon for the Australian go scene? This is what he had to say. Take a listen. Do you have any sense, Gazza, I mean, in talking with the Australian body for go, Any sense for like, I don't know, anything that would be like, oh yes, like we're considering a professional qualification system or anything like this. Do you have any sense?

[50:01] Gazza White: Honestly, I doubt it. Firstly, because there's simply not enough resources to sustain professional players in Australia. Secondly, Australia is a very big country. I know North America is even bigger, but Australia is a very big country and it's very desolate. For instance, it's quicker for me to travel to New Zealand than it is to travel to Perth. New Zealand is a different country and Perth, it's just so difficult to get players just to travel altogether. Like really the only time we do that is the national championships. The thing is, there are a lot of strong players in Australia, but most of them are not Australian citizens, They're not nationals. Yeah, but we have many, many players that did participate in pro qualifications in China, for instance. We sometimes have inseis come and study in Australia, like former inseis. I mean, sorry, former inseis.

[51:02] Travis: Got it.

[51:03] Gazza White: We do have some very strong players, but yeah, it's not on the horizon. We're struggling to revive the Go Congress. We used to have a Go Congress started in I think 2015 and the last time was in 2019. The 2021 was cancelled for the obvious reason. Yeah. And it's yet to be revived. And if logistically, if the Australian Go Association is unable to revive the Go Congress, I don't see an argument for trying to introduce a professional system. It's not something that I'd be opposed to. I certainly, I would love to have professionals representing Australia. That would be amazing. But to be reasonable, it's like just because we want to do it doesn't mean we should. You know what I mean?

[51:50] Travis: Or because you can if you're able to. But like, should you really do that?

[51:53] Gazza White: Yeah, yeah. It's like doing something for your own benefit. But how's that going to benefit the professional and stuff like that, like. Right, right, it's a. But maybe I can talk to some of the executives in the Australian Go Association and we could try out a long term plan. But it would be hard. I, I would focus on other things. Like trying to have our own. Like currently I hold my Go club meetings in a league's club which is like a sports bar. And like it's not our own private room or anything, it's just we turn up, there are some older Korean gentlemen that store their personal boards and stones and they let us use them and we just play some games. We used to rent a building but then the pandemic happened and we gave that up.

[52:39] Gazza White: So yeah, the things on my horizon for me personally are having a more permanent venue, getting more sponsors, reviving the Go Congress and maybe having, having more digital interaction. Because like I said, Australia is very sparse. Capital cities have very long distances between each other. So having more digital interaction would be better. And then think about professional systems. But from what I'm aware of, there hasn't been any discussion on that. Obviously, you know, hey, Joanne Missingham. So she was an Australian, like she still is half Australian and she lived in Australia and she was strong enough to be professional. And what ended up happening was she went to the Chinese professional qualification, ended up doing that. And I think for any Australian that's strong enough to be professional, that is still like going to Japan or Korea or China and turning professional there is still the best career path to them.

[53:43] Travis: On that note, we will wrap things up for the episode. I really appreciate you taking the time and I will talk to you next time. I want to give one final thank you to our sponsors, Go Magic, who creates interactive courses, Go problems, lessons and lectures on the game of Go. Everything you need to know to learn the game of Go online at gomagic.org AI Sensei, where you can play Go against the strong KataGo AI. Analyze your uploaded games, discuss moves with the community and turn mistakes into Go problems. Also SmartGo One, your complete app for the game of Go. Learn to play, practice against the computer, study master games, solve problems and read Go books. Free to download in your App Store. And finally, BadukPop. Learn the rules of the Game of Go with a fun interactive tutorial. Sharpen your Go skills with daily random Go problems at your choice of difficulty. Play games online or with a variety of AI opponents, each with its own unique playing style and strength. at badukpop.com that's B A D U K P O P dot com.